Till:
Robert Turkel, who seems to take great delight in seeing how many personal insults he can hurl at skeptics in a single website article, has apparently ruffled his feathers over the comments that skeptics have made about the flagrant emphasis that he puts on soliciting money for his personal "ministry" on the front page of his Tektonics website.  His dander has been so riled that he has posted an article on the subject to try to justify the daily pitches that he makes for money that will be used almost entirely for his own personal benefit.  As my reply to the article will show, he actually had the gall to compare what he is doing to the activities of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in Madison, Wisconsin.

Turkel's article begins:
I have a word for certain Skeptics out there who want to make a fuss over this ministry soliciting financial support.

Get a life!

Till:
Most of us who have commented on Turkel's money-grubbing activities already have lives, which I'm sure none would trade for his, which he is devoting to the lost cause of trying to prove that an ancient collection of books written in prescientific, highly superstitious times is "the word of God."  By constantly hurling insults, sarcasms, and vituperations at nonbelievers, he goes about it in a way that guarantees failure if he has any hopes at all of ever convincing anyone, who isn't already so inclined to believe, that the Bible is the "inspired word of God."  He needs to take his own advice and get a life, because what he has now can't be much of a life, unless his goals are to succeed at sponging off society and damaging the very cause that he is committed to.

Turkel:
Ever since Jim Bakker and Oral Roberts made a strain with their machinations, it seems the Skeptics have always felt it some kind of "answer" to point out when a ministry asks people for financial support. That and quoting their mission statement. It's enough to refute the entire site, so don't bother any further.

Till:
Jim Bakker and Oral Roberts?  Does Turkel really believe that these are the only charlatans who have been guilty of fleecing the sheep?  If so, what planet has he been living on?

Turkel:
Well, before you Skeppies get too in the mood, I have something for you. You see, my local library offers me access to a special database called Associations Unlimited. It's a neat tool -- here is a description: "Contains information for approximately 460,000 international and U.S. national, regional, state, and local nonprofit membership organizations in all fields, including IRS data on U.S. 501(c) nonprofit organizations."

Till:
Does it also include Tektonics Apolgetic Ministries, Inc.?

Turkel:
One of those organizations is one of your favorites -- Dan Barker's Freedom from Religion Foundation.

Till:
Turkel didn't have to go to Associations Unlimited to get information on the Freedom from Religion Foundation.  Plenty of information about it is available on the internet.  By the way, it is not Dan Barker's Freedom from Religion Foundation.  It was founded a decade before Barker became affiliated with it.  Anne Nicol Gaylor and her daughter Annie Laurel Gaylor founded it in 1976, while Annie Laurel was still a college student, long before either one of them even knew Barker, who at that time was working as a missionary in Mexico.  They incorporated the organization in 1978.

Barker didn't announce his atheism until 1984.  When the Freedom from Religion Foundation was invited to have a representative appear on the Phil Donahue Show, the Gaylors, who had heard of Barker but didn't know him personally, contacted him and secured his agreement to represent them.  He made such a good impression that he was asked to join the organization.  He did, and in 1987, he and Annie Laurel Gaylor were married.  He has served as director of public relations for the organization for 15 years, during which time he made a second appearance on the Phil Donahue Show and has appeared on the Sally Jessy Raphael Show (three times) and talk shows conducted by Ophra Winfrey, Morton Downey, Jr., Maurie Povich, Jane Whitney, Joan Lunden, and Betty Rollin.  He has even appeared on Pat Robertson's show "Straight Talk" and "The Hannity and Colmes" show on Fox News.

I wonder how many national talk shows Turkel has appeared on.

Barker has also appeared on numerous regional talk shows and has conducted 35 public debates on issues like the existence of God, the resurrection, the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, and others.  How many public debates has Turkel conducted?  How many lecture tours does he make each year?  How many radio programs does he appear on?  Does he do anything at all except sit at home and write articles for a website that solicits money so that he can keep pecking away at his keyboard?

Is Turkel serious in trying to compare his activities to those of Dan Barker?

Turkel:
Uptight about my solicitation, and my asking people to contribute $70-80 per year?

Till:
I'm not, I just consider it another example of a would-be champion of the faith fleecing the gullible.  Anyone who could read Turkel's website, and especially the trouncings he has taken in his attempts to "debate," and then would pledge to him $70 to $80 per year deserves to be fleeced.  I put them in the same class with the gullible who fall for the Nigeria-oil and other get-rich schemes that permeate the internet.

Turkel:
Before you get too excited, here are some fun facts about Danny's Place:

Membership Dues: individual, $40 annual; household, $50 annual. (Ouch -- not quite $80, but they do know the principles, don't they?)

Staff: 5.

Budget: $500,000. (Read that one again. That's five zeroes.)

Missions: Promotes the constitutional principle of separation of state and church; educates the public on matters relating to nontheistic beliefs; combats fundamentalist thought. Opposes payment of public funds for religious purposes, government favoritism toward religious institutions, illegal activities conducted in the name of religious charities, and the  religious campaign against women's rights and against civil rights for homosexuals. Has ended prayers in public programs and schools. Has stopped the practice by the U.S. Postal Service of giving cancellations to a Catholic group in violation of the Postal Service's own regulations. (There's more, but I want to know, Skeptics: Can I just quote this "mission statement" like you often do mine, and be entirely rid of Dan's arguments forever?)

Publications:

• American Infidel: Robert G. Ingersoll. Book. Price: $15.00/copy.

• The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible. Book. Price: $15.00/copy.

• Freethought Today, $10/year. Newspaper. Includes legal cases, features on freethinkers, reports on clergy abuse, philosophical articles, and reports on foundation activities. Price: included in membership dues; $20.00/year for nonmembers. Circulation: 4,400.

• Losing Faith in Faith - From Preacher to Atheist. Book. Price: $20.00/copy.

• One Woman's Fight. Book. Price: $15.00/copy.

• 20th Century Women Freethinkers. Book.

• Woe to the Women - The Bible Tells Me So. Book. Price: $10.00.

• Women Without Superstition: No Gods - No Masters: The Collected Writings of Women Freethinkers of the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries. Price: $25.00.

• The World-Famous Atheist Cookbook. (Hey, wow, they don't use Amazon, but isn't that fascinating. Selling books to raise cash!)

Till:
Maybe Turkel could arrange for Amazon to market FFRF's books so that he could list them on his website and get a cut on any sales made through him.  He has a long list of books that he disapproves of, so he could add these seven, knock them in reviews, and then wait for the money to come in.  Hey, he's not proud.  Money is money.

Despite Turkel's sarcasm, there is a huge difference in FFRF's book marketing and his.  Turkel lists books that he doesn't approve of, pans them in sarcastic reviews, and then says, "But you can get it here [at Tektonics]."  FFRF markets books compatible with its mission; it doesn't hawk books that it disapproves of in order to get a cut on the sales.  It's called integrity, something that is foreign to Turkel's personal moral code.

Anyway, the information that Turkel has posted about the Freedom from Religion Foundation shows an organization with a staff and a long list of activities that it engages in.  Does Turkel think that the lawsuits that FFRF files on behalf of groups seeking equity in the courts on religious intrusions into affairs of state are done pro bono publico?  Does Turkel have any idea what legal fees would be in all of the cases that FFRF is involved in each year?

Has Turkel ever accessed The Freedom From Religion Foundation and seen the picture of Freethought Hall, which is located in Madison, Wisconsin, and serves as the center of all of FFRF's activities?  Does Turkel think that a building like this was bought for just peanuts?

Turkel:
So in short, Skeptics:

Let's not hear anything about this ministry asking for funds -- not until Dan cuts that budget and starts wearing sackcloth.

Let's not hear any complaints about being supported through Amazon profits.

Let's cut the tactic of quoting mission statements, or solicitation statements, as a form of "refutation".

Till:
I have seen the fallacy of false analogy many times in my debates with biblical inerrantists, but this article has to be one of the most flagrant cases of comparing apples to oranges that I have ever seen.  Turkel is trying to compare his little enterprise operated out of his home to a national organization, which conducts debates across the nation, publishes a newspaper, files lawsuits all over the country on behalf of the separation of church and state, and sends representatives to national talk shows.  Skepticism, Inc., is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization, which I established 12 years ago and have operated out of my home ever since.  It has a staff of one--me.  At no time have I ever solicited contributions.  People have voluntarily sent contributions, but I never once asked for donations.  When money was needed to keep the organization going, I contributed it out of my salary as a college instructor and then later out of my retirement pension, so if Turkel wants to compare his one-man Tektonics Apologetics Ministry to another nonprofit organization, Skepticism, Inc., would be one more parallel to his.

I never begged for money, Turkel, so should I be entitled to criticize your little "ministry" for trying to fleece the gullible out of enough money to let you stay at home and crank out your daily quota of cut-and-pasted "apologetics"?

Disparity in size is not the only factor that makes Turkel's comparison of his "ministry" to FFRF a flagrant case of false analogy.  The Freedom From Religion Foundation is one of just a few organizations that work to keep religion from intruding into state affairs.  On the other hand, the internet is polluted with websites maintained by would-be apologists like Robert Turkel.  He could vanish into oblivion and would never be missed, but if FFRF, Inc., dissolved, a huge hole would be left that those interested in keeping religion out of public affairs would have to fill. 

Apples and oranges--no doubt about it.  This is just another example of Turkel's complete inability to reason logically.

Turkel:
And above all, let's see you take on actual arguments instead. Do we make ourselves clear?

Till:
Well, I have done that, Turkel.  I have taken your "arguments" and gone through them point by point, while you write "replies" that hop, skip, and jump over major points that I made.  Anyone can go to The Skeptical Review Online and see that you are getting from me detailed rebuttals (which I am still in the process of writing) and that you are ignoring most of them and trying to hide your evasions behind a constant stream of sarcasm and insults.  Furthermore, you have proven yourself to be a liar by not linking your "replies" to my articles as you promised you would do before the debates began.

Do I make myself clear?

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